|  |  | Previous Folio / Kethuboth Directory / Tractate List / Navigate Site # Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Kethuboth ### Folio 11a We will also say:1 ailonith [the barren woman that is] a man-like2 woman, who does not bear children.3 MISHNAH. A WOMAN PROSELYTE, A WOMAN CAPTIVE, AND A WOMAN SLAVE, WHO HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, CONVERTED, OR FREED [WHEN THEY WERE] LESS THAN THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY OLD — THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]. AND THERE IS WITH REGARD TO THEM THE CLAIM OF [NON-]VIRGINITY.4 |  |  |
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|  |  | GEMARA. R. Huna said: A minor proselyte5 is immersed6 by the direction7 of the court.8 What does he let us know? That it is an advantage9 to him and one may act for a person in his absence10 to his advantage? [Surely] we have learned [this already]: One may act for a person in his absence to his advantage. but one cannot act for a person in his absence to his disadvantage! … What you might have supposed is that an idolator11 prefers a life without restraint12 because it is established for us that a slave certainly prefers a dissolute life,13 therefore, he14 lets us know that this is said15 [only in the case] of a grown-up person who has already tasted sin,16 but [in the case of] a minor, it is an advantage to him.17 May we say that [this Mishnah] supports him:18 A WOMAN PROSELYTE, A WOMAN CAPTIVE, AND A WOMAN SLAVE, WHO HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, CONVERTED, OR FREED [WHEN THEY WERE] LESS THAN THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY OLD [etc.]? Is it not that they immersed them19 by the direction of the Court?20 No, here we treat of the case of a proselyte whose sons and daughters were converted with him, so that they are satisfied with what their father does.21 R. Joseph said: When they22 have become of age they can protest [against their conversion].23 Abaye asked:24 A WOMAN PROSELYTE, A WOMAN CAPTIVE, AND A WOMAN SLAVE, WHO HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, CONVERTED OR FREED [WHEN THEY WERE] LESS THAN THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY OLD — THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]. Now if you indeed mean to say [that] when they have become of age they can protest [against their conversion],25 would we give her the kethubah that she may go and eat [it] in her heathen state? — When she has become of age.26 [But] when she has become of age, too, she can protest and go out!27 — As soon as she was of age one hour, and did not protest, she cannot protest any more.28 Raba raised an objection: These maidens receive the fine:29 if a man has intercourse with30 a bastard,31 a Nethinah,32 a Cuthean,33 a proselyte, a captive. or a slave, who have been redeemed, converted, or freed [when they were] less than three years and one day old-they have to be paid the fine.34 Now if you say [that] when they have become of age they can protest, would we give her35 the fine that she may go and eat it in her heathen state? — When she has become of age.36 When she has become of age too she can protest and go out!37 — As soon as she was of age one hour and did not protest she cannot protest any more.38 Abaye did not say as Raba [said]39 [because] there40 [where it speaks of fines |  |  |
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|  |  | we can say]: This is the reason:41 that the sinner should not have any benefit.42 Raba did not say as Abaye [said]43 because in the case of the kethubah [we can say that] this is the reason:44 that it45 should not be a light matter in his eyes to send her away.46 MISHNAH. WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN47 HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH48 A LITTLE GIRL,49 OR WHEN A SMALL BOY50 HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR [WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY] INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD 51 — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]; SO ACCORDING TO52 R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY: A GIRL WHO WAS INJURED ACCIDENTALLY BY A PIECE OF WOOD — HER KETHUBAH IS A MANEH. A VIRGIN, WHO WAS A WIDOW, A DIVORCEE, OR A HALUZAH FROM MARRIAGE53 — HER54 KETHUBAH IS A MANEH.55 To Part b Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files We will make a similar etymological exposition. Or ram-like. [H] 'a woman who cannot bear children,' is connected with [H] (ram). I.e., who is incapable of bearing children. If they had sexual intercourse before they were three years and one day old the hymen would grow again, and they would be virgins. V. 9a and 11b and cf. Nid. 44b and 45a. I.e., a minor who wants to become a proselyte, that is, be converted to Judaism. Prior to and for the purpose of that conversion the would-be proselyte has to undergo circumcision and immersion in water. V. Yeb. 46aff. The immersion is to signify his purification. If the would-be proselyte is a minor (under thirteen years of age) and has no father to act for him, the Court can authorise his ritual immersion. Lit., 'they immerse him'. Lit., 'by the knowledge'. Lit., 'house of judgment'. Three members constitute the court. To be received into the Jewish Faith. Lit., 'not in his presence'. — As the proselyte is a minor he is not, legally speaking, present. Lit.,'one who worships the stars and planets.' Lit., 'lawlessness, unbridled lust.' — It would therefore be a disadvantage to the minor would-be proselyte to become a Jew. Cf. Git. 13a. — This confirms the former supposition. R. Huna. Lit., 'these words.' Lit., 'who has tasted the taste of what is forbidden'. To become a Jew. R. Huna. The women proselytes. Because they were less than three years and one day old, consequently minors. The immersion of the minor proselytes therefore took place by the direction of their father and not of the Court. — This Mishnah is therefore no support for R. Huna. The minor proselytes. And leave the Jewish faith and go back to their former state without being liable to a penalty by the Jewish Court. Lit., 'he raised against this a point of contradiction from a higher authority.' V. note 2. Only then one gives her the kethubah. Of Judaism; why then give her the kethubah? The kethubah would be given to her after 'one hour'. Lit., 'These maidens to whom there is a fine'. — The fine is that for seducing a girl; v. Deut. XXII, 29. Lit., 'He who came on.' V. Yeb. 49a. A descendant of the Gibeonites. V. Joshua IX, 22, 23, 27 and cf. Yeb. 78b. A Samaritan. V. infra 29a. The proselyte. And adhered to Jewish practice, only then she is paid the fine, v. Tosaf. Of Judaism. The fine would be given to her after 'one hour'. Did not ask the question of Raba. In the Mishnah, infra 29a. Why the fine should he paid to the seduced proselyte girl. Therefore he should pay the fine in any case. But the case of the kethubah (in our Mishnah) is different. Therefore, Abaye asked from our Mishnah. He did not ask the same question as Abaye. Why the kethubah is paid to the woman proselyte. Lit., 'she'. Lit., 'to bring her out (of his house)', that is, to divorce her. Therefore he should pay the kethubah in any case. But the case of the fine is different. Therefore Raba asks from the Mishnah infra 29a. A man who was of age. Lit., 'who came on'. Less than three years old. Less than nine years of age. Lit., 'One who was injured by wood', as a result of which she injured the hymen. Lit., 'the words of'. A maiden was married, and immediately after the marriage, became a widow or divorced, or a haluzah; v. supra 10b. Lit., 'their', that is, the kethubah of each of them. Since the marriage had taken place she is regarded as a married woman and it is assumed that she is no more a virgin. Tractate List / Glossary / / Bible Reference ### Kethuboth 11b AND THERE IS WITH REGARD TO THEM NO CHARGE OF NONVIRGINITY. A WOMAN PROSELYTE, A WOMAN CAPTIVE AND A WOMAN SLAVE, WHO HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, CONVERTED, OR FREED [WHEN THEY WERE] MORE THAN THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY OLD — THEIR KETHUBAH IS A MANEH, AND THERE IS WITH REGARD TO THEM NO CHARGE OF NON-VIRGINITY. GEMARA. Rab Judah said that Rab said: A small boy who |  |  |
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|  |  | has intercourse with a grown-up woman makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood.1 When I said it before Samuel he said: 'Injured by a piece of wood' does not apply to2 flesh. Some teach this teaching by itself:3 [As to] a small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman. Rab said, he makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood; whereas Samuel said: 'Injured by a piece of wood' does not apply to flesh. R. Oshaia objected: WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN HAS HAD INTERCOURSE WITH A LITTLE GIRL, OR WHEN A SMALL BOY HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]; SO ACCORDING TO R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY: A GIRL WHO WAS INJURED ACCIDENTALLY BY A PIECE OF WOOD — HER KETHUBAH IS A MANEH!4 Raba said, It means5 this: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this,6 it is as if one puts the finger into the eye;7 but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as 'a girl who is injured by a piece of wood,' and [with regard to the case of] 'a girl injured by a piece of wood,' itself, there is the difference of opinion between R. Meir and the Sages. Rami b. Hama said: The difference of opinion8 is [only] when he9 knew her,10 for R. Meir compares her11 to a mature girl,12 and |  |  |
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|  |  | the Sages compare her to a woman who had intercourse with a man.13 But if he did not know her,14 all agree15 that she has nothing.16 And why does R. Meir compare her to a mature girl? Let him compare her to a woman who had intercourse with a man! — [In the case of] a woman who had intercourse with a man, a deed had been done to her by a man;17 but in her case18 — no deed has been done to her by a man. — And why do the Rabbis compare19 her to a woman who had intercourse with a man? Let them compare her to a mature girl! [In the case of] a mature girl no deed whatsoever has been done to her,20 but in her case — a deed has been done to her.21 'But if he did not know her, all agree that she gets nothing'.22 R. Nahman objected: If she says. 'I was injured by a piece of wood,' and he says. 'No, but thou hadst intercourse with a man', Rabban Gamaliel and R. Eliezer say [that] she is believed!23 But, said Raba, whether he knew her24 and whether he did not know her,25 according to R. Meir [her kethubah is] two hundred [zuz];26 [whereas] according to the Rabbis, if he knew her [her kethubah is] a maneh, [if] he did not know her, she gets nothing.27 Raba however changed his opinion,28 for it has been taught: How [does] the bringing out of an evil name29 [take place]? He30 comes to court and says, 'I, So-and-so,31 have not found in thy daughter the tokens of virginity.' If there are witnesses that she has been unchaste under him,32 she gets a33 kethubah of a maneh.34 [But surely] if there are witnesses that she has been unchaste under him, she is to be stoned!35 — It means this: If there are witnesses that she has been unchaste under him, she has to be stoned; if she was unchaste before [the betrothal], she gets a kethubah of a maneh. Now R. Hiyya b. Abin said [that] R. Shesheth said: This teaches:36 If he married her in the presumption that she is a virgin and she was found to have had intercourse with a man,37 she gets a kethubah of a maneh. Whereupon R. Nahman objected: 'If one marries a woman and does not find in her virginity, [and] she says, "After thou hadst betrothed me [to thyself] I was forced38 and [thus] thy39 field has been inundated," and he says, "No, but before I betrothed thee [unto me] [thou hadst intercourse with a man], my bargain is [thus] a mistaken one." [etc.]'40 and [this assuredly means] she is to get nothing!41 And R. Hiyya b. Abin said to them: Is it possible! R. Amram and all the great ones of the age sat42 when R. Shesheth said that teaching and they found it difficult43 and he44 answered: In which respect is it indeed a mistaken bargain? In respect of two hundred [zuz:], but a maneh she gets [as a kethubah]. And you45 say [that it means] she gets nothing! Whereupon Raba said: He who asked [this question]46 has asked well, for a mistaken bargain' means entirely.47 But [then] that [other teaching] presents a difficulty.48 Put [it] right49 and say thus: If there are witnesses that she was unchaste under him50 she has to be stoned, if she was unchaste before [the betrothal], she gets nothing, if she was found to be injured by a piece of wood, she has a kethubah of a maneh. But Surely it was Raba who said [above that], according to the Rabbis, if he did not know her, she gets nothing!51 Hence you must conclude52 from this53 that Raba retracted from that [opinion].54 Our Rabbis taught: If the first [husband] took her [the bride] to his home for the purpose of marriage. and she has witnesses that she was not alone [with him,]55 or even if she was alone [with him]. but she did not stay [with him] as much time as is needed for intercourse, the second [husband]56 cannot raise any complaint with regard to her virginity, for the first [husband] had taken her to his home [for the purpose of marriage].57 - To Next Folio - Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files Although the intercourse of a small boy is not regarded as a sexual act, nevertheless the woman is injured by it as by a piece of wood. Lit., 'is not in'. I.e., the difference of opinion between Rab and Samuel with regard to that question was recorded without any reference to R. Judah. The Sages differ only with regard to a girl injured by a piece of wood, but not with regard to a small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman. This shows that the latter case cannot be compared with the former case. The Mishnah would consequently be against Rab and for Samuel. Lit., 'says'. Lit., 'here', that is, less than three years old. I.e., tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years. Cf. Nid. 45a. Between R. Meir and the Sages. The husband. I.e., he knew, when he married her, that the bride was thus injured. The one who was thus injured. A bogereth (v. Glos.), a girl of full maturity, may sometimes not have signs of virginity, (v. Yeb. 59a), and her kethubah is nevertheless two hundred zuz. And had no virginity. Therefore her kethubah is only a maneh, as that of a widow. Did not know of the injury and thus thought that she was in her full virginity. Lit., 'the words of all.' Lit., 'it is nothing'. — As he was kept in ignorance of what happened to her, she does not get even a maneh (Rashi). Lit., 'by the hands of man'. Lit., 'this'. Lit., 'instead of comparing'. Her signs of virginity vanished through her maturity. Through the piece of wood. This is the concluding part of the statement. V. infra 23a. This shews that she gets the kethubah even if he did not know that she had been thus injured. I.e., knew, when he married her, that she had been injured. Did not know that she was thus injured. [And the author of the Mishnah which states that she is believed, will be R. Meir, and she receives two hundred zuz]. V. n. 4. [And our Mishnah which states that she gets only a maneh will represent the view of the Sages in the case where he knew her]. Lit., 'and Raba went back on himself.' Cf. Deut. XXII, 13, 14. The husband. Lit., 'such and such a person', — the, husband is addressing the father of his young wife. I.e., that she had intercourse with a man after their betrothal. Lit., 'there is unto her'. V. infra 46a. Lit., 'a daughter of stoning' — (Cf. Deut. XXII, 20, 21). [How then can she have a claim to a kethubah?] Lit., 'this says'. Before the betrothal. By a man to have intercourse with him. Lit., 'his field'. V. Mishnah, infra 12b. [I.e., the words 'my bargain is a mistaken one' imply that the husband in making this charge denies her the right to receive anything at all. This refutes R. Shesheth's view that she is entitled in such a case to one maneh.] I.e., were present. Lit., 'and it was difficult unto them'. I.e., they felt the difficulty presented by the cited Mishnah. R. Shesheth. R. Nahman. I.e., R. Nahman, by asking the question from the cited Mishnah. I.e., entirely a mistaken bargain and she gets nothing. The question of R. Nahman was therefore a good question. Lit., 'That is difficult'. The Baraitha of Kethuboth 46a, which says that if she was unchaste before the betrothal she gets a kethubah of a maneh. I.e., answer. I.e., that she had intercourse with a man after their betrothal. And this is in contradiction with what Raba said just now, namely. that if the young wife was found to be injured by a piece of wood, she has a Kethubah of a maneh. Lit., 'hear from this'. From Raba's statement that one injured thus gets a kethubah of a maneh. Expressed by Raba previously that, according to the Rabbis, if the husband did not know before the betrothal that the bride was injured, she gets no kethubah at all. Lit., 'that she was not hidden.' The woman married again after the death of, or divorce by. the first husband. As she was married before, the second husband must reckon with the possibility of her having had intercourse with the first husband, in spite of the evidence which she can bring to shew that the marriage was not consummated. 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