|  |  | Previous Folio / Nedarim Directory / Tractate List / Navigate Site # Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Nedarim ### Folio 52a HE MAY PARTAKE OF BROTH AND THE SEDIMENTS OF BOILED MEAT;1 BUT R. JUDAH FORBIDS THEM]. R. JUDAH SAID: IT ONCE HAPPENED THAT [IN SUCH A CASE] R. TARFON FORBADE US2 [EVEN] EGGS BOILED THEREWITH. THEY REPLIED, THAT IS SO, BUT ONLY IF HE VOWS, 'THIS MEAT BE FORBIDDEN ME. FOR IF HE VOWS [TO ABSTAIN] FROM SOMETHING, AND IT IS MIXED UP WITH ANOTHER, IF IT [THE FORBIDDEN FOOD] IS SUFFICIENT TO IMPART ITS TASTE [TO THE OTHER]. IT3 IS FORBIDDEN.4 IF HE VOWS [TO ABSTAIN] FROM WINE, HE IS PERMITTED [TO FAT] FOOD WHICH CONTAINS THE TASTE OF WINE; BUT IF HE SAYS, 'KONAM IF I TASTE THIS WINE', AND IT FALLS INTO FOOD, IF IT IS SUFFICIENT TO IMPART ITS TASTE [TO THE FOOD]. IT IS FORBIDDEN. To Part b Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files Bits of meat that fall away from the piece in boiling and form a jelly. Ear. Iec. me. That other food. But if one vows abstinence from meat in general, the eggs boiled therewith, likewise the soup and meat sediment, are permitted. Tractate List / Glossary / / Bible Reference ### Nedarim 52b GEMARA. But the following contradicts this. [If one vows abstinence] from lentils, lentil cakes are forbidden him; R. Jose permits them!1 — There is no difficulty: each Master [rules] according to [the usage] of his locality. In that of the Rabbis, milk is called milk, and curd, curd; but in that of R. Jose, curd too is called curd of milk. It was taught: He who vows [abstinence] from milk, is permitted curd; from curd, is permitted milk; from milk, is permitted cheese; from cheese, is permitted milk; from broth, is permitted meat sediment; from meat sediment, is permitted broth. If he says, 'This meat be forbidden me,' the meat itself, its broth and its sediment, are forbidden him. If he vows [to abstain] from wine, he may partake of food which contains the taste of wine; but if he says, 'Konam that I taste not this wine,' and it falls into food, if the taste of wine is [perceptible] therein, it is forbidden. MISHNAH. HE WHO VOWS [ABSTINENCE] FROM GRAPES IS PERMITTED WINE: FROM OLIVES, IS PERMITTED OIL. IF HE SAYS, KONAM. THAT I TASTE NOT THESE OLIVES AND GRAPES', BOTH THEY AND THEIR JUICE2 ARE FORBIDDEN. GEMARA. Ram b. Hama propounded: Is 'these' essential, or 'that I taste not' essential?3 (But, if you can think that 'these' is essential, why add 'that I taste not'? — He [the Tanna] may teach this [by the addition]: even if he Says. 'that I taste not.' yet only if he declares, 'these' is he prohibited, but not otherwise.) — Raba said. Come and hear: [If one says Konam be these fruits to me,'4 'Be they konam to my mouth,' he is forbidden [to benefit] from what is exchanged for them or what grows of their seeds. This implies that he may benefit from their juice!5 — In truth, even their juice is forbidden; but he [the Tanna] prefers to teach that what is exchanged for them is the same as what grows from their seeds.6 Come and hear: 'That I eat not or taste not of them,' he is permitted [to benefit] from what is exchanged for them or what grows of their seeds.7 This implies that their juice is forbidden!8 — Because the first clause does not mention their juice, the second clause omits it too.9 Come and hear: R. Judah said: It once happened that [in such a case] R. Tarfon forbade us [even] eggs boiled therewith. They replied, that is so. By only if he vows, 'This meat be forbidden me.' For if he vows [to abstain] from something, and it is mixed up with another, if it [the forbidden food] is sufficient to impart its taste [to the other], it is forbidden!10 — There is no question about 'these': that is certainly essential.11 The problem is with respect to 'that I taste not': is that essential or not?12 — Come and hear: ['Konam that I taste not fish or fishes'], he is forbidden [to eat] them, both large and small, salted and unsalted, raw and cooked. Yet he may eat hashed terith and brine!13 — Raba said: Providing it [the brine] had already issued from them [before the vow].14 - To Next Folio - Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files Infra 53b. Thus R. Jose permits what is made from the forbidden substance, whilst in the Mishnah he declares curd forbidden under the term milk. Lit., 'what comes from them'. Since an ordinary vow does not interdict the juice (If grapes and olives, whilst in the second clause thus is forbidden, the question arises, on account of which particular phrase are they prohibited? Is it because he vowed 'these grapes', or because he added 'that I taste not', superfluous in itself, being implied in konam, and therefore perhaps extending the vow to oil and wine? Infra 57a. Though he said 'these'. This proves that the essential clause in the Mishnah is 'that I taste not'. Though the firmer is an entirely different thing: how much more than that which actually issues therefrom! This continues the quotation. For, according to the last answer, this is more likely to be forbidden than the others. Hence, were this permitted, it would be explicitly stated. This too proves that the essential clause is 'that I taste not'. For the sake of uniformity. But actually it may be permitted. This definitely proves that 'this' is essential. I.e., it is certain that 'these' alone extends the vow as indicated. Is that phrase alone sufficient to extend its scope? Brine is the juice that issues from the fish, yet it is permitted, though he said, 'that I taste not'. This proves that that alone is insufficient. But the brine which issues thereafter may be forbidden: hence the problem remains. Tractate List / Glossary / / Bible Reference |  |  |