|  |  | Previous Folio / Kethuboth Directory / Tractate List / Navigate Site # Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Kethuboth ### Folio 10a It was stated: Rab Nahman said [that] Samuel said in the name of R. Simeon b. Eleazar: The scholars ordained for the daughters of Israel [as follows]: for a maiden two hundred [zuz1] and for a widow a maneh 2 [one hundred zuz].3 And they trusted him, so that when he said, 'I have found an open opening', he is believed.4 If so, what have the Sages accomplished with their ordinance?5 — Said Raba: The presumption is [that] no one will take the trouble of preparing a [wedding-]feast and will then spoil it.6 One has taught: Since it7 is a fine [instituted] by the sages she8 shall collect only from the worst land9 [of the husband's estate]. [You say] a fine! Why a fine?10 — Say then: since it is an ordinance of the sages,11 she shall collect only from the worst land [of the husband's estate]. Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel says: The kethubah of a wife is from the Torah.12 But did Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel say so? Surely it has been taught: [It is written in the Torah] He shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins;13 [this teaches us that] this14 is [as much] as the dowry of the virgins15 and the dowry of the virgins is [as much] as this.16 But,17 the Sages found a support for [the rule that] the kethubah of a wife is from the Torah. Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel Says: The kethubah of a wife is not from the words of the Bible, but from the words of the Soferim!18 — Reverse it.19 And why does it appear to you right to reverse20 the latter [teaching]? Reverse the former [teaching]!21 — We have [already] heard that R. Simeon the son of Gamaliel said that the kethubah is from the Bible, for we learnt: Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel says: He22 gives her23 [the kethubah] in Cappadocian coins.24 And if you wish, you may say: The whole of it25 is [according to] Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel. only26 it is defective27 and it teaches thus:28 Here the Sages found a support for [the rule that] the kethubah of a wife is from the Torah. The kethubah of a widow [however] is not from the words of the Torah but from the words of the Soferim, for Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel Says: The kethubah of a widow is not from the words of the Torah but from the words of the Soferim.29 Someone came before R. Nahman [and] said to him: I have found an open opening.30 R. Nahman answered:31 Lash him with palm-switches; harlots32 lie prostrate before him.33 But it is R. Nahman who said that he [the husband] is believed!34 — He is believed, but [at the same time] one lashes him with palm-switches. R. Ahai answered: Here35 [it speaks] of a young man,36 there [it speaks] of one who was married before.37 Some one came before Rabban Gamaliel [and] said to him, I have found an 'open opening'. He [Rabban Gamaliel] answered him: Perhaps you moved aside.38 I will give you an illustration: To what is this like? To a man who was walking in the deep darkness of the night39 [and came to his house and found the door locked];40 if he moves aside [the bolt41 of the door] he finds it open, if he does not move aside [the bolt of the door] he finds it locked. Some say [that] he [R. Gamaliel] answered him thus: Perhaps you moved aside wilfully42 and you tore away the door and the bar.43 I will give you an illustration: To what is this like? To a man who was walking in the deep darkness of the night [and came to his house and found the door locked]; if he moves aside [the bolt of the door] wilfully44 he finds it open, if he does |  |  |
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|  |  | not move aside [the bolt of the door] wilfully he finds it locked. Some one came before Rabban Gamaliel the son of Rabbi [and] said to him, 'My master, I have had intercourse [with my newly-wedded wife] and I have not found any blood.' She [the wife] said to him, 'My master, I was a virgin.' He said to them: Bring me that cloth.45 They brought him the cloth, and he soaked it in water and he washed it and he found on it a good many drops of blood.46 [Thereupon] he [Rabban Gamaliel] said to him [the husband]: Go, be happy with thy bargain.47 Huna Mar the son of Raba of Parazika,48 said to R. Ashi: Shall we also do it?49 He answered him: To Part b Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files V. Glos. V. Glos. As her kethubah. V. infra 10b. And she loses the kethubah. If he can make her lose the kethubah by the claim of an 'open opening'. No one will go to the trouble and expense of a wedding and then waste it all by an invented claim. If he makes such a charge, he is, no doubt, telling the truth. The kethubah. The wife. Cf. also B.K. 7b and 8a. Why do you call it a fine? And why should it he a fine? I.e., a Rabbinical, and not a Biblical, ordinance. I.e.. an ordinance of the Bible. Ex. XXII, 16. The payment for the enticement of the virgin. I.e., fifty pieces of silver, the fine inflicted for violating a virgin, v. Deut. XXII, 27. The 'silver pieces' referred to are shekels, not ma'ahs, v. infra 38a. Lit., 'from here', i.e., from the phrase 'dowry of virgins'. The Soferim, or scribes, were the learned men who succeeded Ezra during a period of about two hundred years. Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel therefore holds that the kethubah was a Rabbinical, and not a Biblical, ordinance. The answer is: Reverse the reading and say that Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel said that in the Scriptural verse mentioned is to be found a support for the rule that the kethubah of a wife is from the Bible, and that the first Tanna said that it was not Biblical but 'from the words of the Soferim'. Lit., 'And why do you see that you should reverse.' Where it says that Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel holds that the kethubah of a wife is from the Torah. The husband. The wife. They were more variable than the Palestinian coins. The husband has to pay in Cappadocian coins because the kethubah is from the Bible; v. infra 110b. Of the teaching of the Baraitha mentioned before. Lit., 'and'. A clause is missing. I.e., the Baraitha should be read thus. According to this version of the Baraitha, R. Simeon b. Gamaliel holds that the kethubah of the maiden-wife is Biblical and that the kethubah of the widow-wife is rabbinical. He (the husband) raised this complaint about his newly wedded wife. Lit., 'said to him', i.e., concerning him. V. Levy, Vol. III, p. 2. Rashi: 'the harlots of Mabrakta'. [Mabrakta was a place in the neighbourhood of Mahoza. v. Obermeyer, p. 177.] I.e., such a man ought to be punished. for if he is such an expert in these matters he must have led an immoral life. If the husband says that he has not found virginity in his wife. Why should he then be lashed for having complained to R. Nahman about his wife? Where R. Nahman ordered punishment.' Who was not married before. He should not have known if he had not had intercourse with harlots before his marriage. There R. Nahman ordered lashing. And therefore he could know without having led an immoral life. He is therefore believed and receives no lashing (Rashi). It is also possible that according to R. Ahai both are believed R. Ahai only explains that it is the young man who gets the birch. And thus performed the coition without tearing the hymen. V. Jast. p. 595. Lit., 'in the blackness of night and darkness'; cf. Prov. VII, 9. Some such words as these must be inserted. 'He moved aside', and 'he did not move aside' refer apparently to the bolt of the door and not to the door itself. The simile is obvious: the bolt is compared to the membrum virile. He moved the membrum virile aside and therefore found 'an open opening'. Intentionally. The 'door', 'door-way', 'entrance', apparently refers to the vagina, or the entrance into the vagina, and 'the bar' to the hymen. He intentionally moved so forcibly that he tore open the entrance and swept away the hymen without feeling it. The action must be intentional. The chief point of this version seems to be the wilful intention. The bolt of a door cannot, as a rule, he moved aside accidentally. There must be intention in the action. Upon which they spent the night. The blood was covered by semen. Lit., 'take possession of' a phrase in which there is also an element of joy. 'Be happy with' expresses well the spirit of the decision. Rabban Gamaliel himself was happy that he could keep together and strengthen the bond of marriage between husband and wife. Faransag, near Bagdad. I.e., apply in such cases the test applied by Rabban Gamaliel to the cloth. Tractate List / Glossary / / Bible Reference ### Kethuboth 10b Our1 laundry work2 is like their3 washing.4 And if you will say let us do laundry work,5 [my answer is] the smoothing stone will remove it.6 Someone came before Rabban Gamaliel the son of Rabbi [and] said to him, 'My master, I have had intercourse [with my newly-wedded wife] and I have not found any blood.' She [the wife] said to him, 'My master, I am still a virgin.' He [then] said to them: Bring me two handmaids, one [who is] a virgin and one who had intercourse with a man. They brought to him [two such handmaids], and he placed them upon a cask of wine. [In the case of] |  |  |
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|  |  | the one who was no more a virgin its smell7 went through,8 [in the case of] the virgin the smell did not go through.9 He [then] placed this one [the young wife] also [on a cask of wine]. and its smell10 did not go through. He11 [then] said to him:12 Go, be happy with thy bargain.13 — But he should have examined her from the very beginning!14 — He had heard a tradition,15 but he had not seen it done in practice.16 and he thought. The matter might not be certain17 and it would not be proper18 to deal lightly with daughters of Israel.19 Someone came before Rabban Gamaliel the elder [and] said to him, 'My master, I have had intercourse [with my newly-wedded wife] and I have not found any blood. She [the wife] said to him, 'My master, I am of the family of Dorkati, [the women of] which have neither blood of menstruation nor blood of virginity.' Rabban Gamaliel investigated among her women relatives and he found [the facts to be] in accordance with her words. He [then] said to him: Go, be happy with thy bargain. Happy art thou that thou hast been privileged [to marry a woman] of the family of Dorkati. What is [the meaning of] Dorkati? — A cut-off generation.20 — R. Hanina said: Vain consolation Rabban Gamaliel offered21 to that man, for R. Hiyya taught: As the leaven is wholesome for the dough, so is blood wholesome for a woman. And one has [also] taught in the name of R. Meir: Every woman who has abundant blood has many children. It has been said: R, Jeremiah b. Abba said: He [Rabban Gamaliel] said to him [the husband]: Be happy with thy bargain. But R. Jose b. Abin said: He said to him: thou hast been punished with thy bargain.22 We quite understand |  |  |
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|  |  | the one who says 'Thou hast been punished' with thy bargain — this is [according to the view] of R. Hanina. But according to him who says 'Be happy' [with thy bargain], what is the advantage [of such a marriage]? — He [the husband] does not come to any doubt regarding menstruation. Someone came to Rabbi [and] said, 'My master, I have had intercourse [with my newly-wedded wife] and I have not found any blood.' She said, 'My master, I was [and am] still a virgin, and it was [a period of] years of dearth.' Rabbi saw that their faces were black,23 [and] he commanded concerning them, and they24 brought them25 to a bath and gave them to eat and to drink and brought them to the bridal chamber, and he had intercourse with her and found blood. He26 [then] said to him: Go, be happy with thy bargain. Rabbi applied to them the verse:27 Their skin is shrivelled upon their bodies,' it is withered, it is become like a stick.28 MISHNAH. A MAIDEN — HER KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ],29 AND A WIDOW — A MANEH.30 A MAIDEN, WHO IS A WIDOW, [OR] DIVORCED, OR A HALUZAH 31 FROM BETROTHAL32 — HER KETHUBAH 33 IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ], AND THERE LIES AGAINST THEM THE CHARGE OF NON-VIRGINITY.34 GEMARA. Why [is a widow called] 'almanah'? R. Hana of Bagdad said: because of the maneh.35 But what can be said with |  |  |
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|  |  | regard to a widow from the betrothal?36 — Because that one is called 'almanah'37 this one is also called 'almanah.'38 What can be said with regard to [the word] 'almanah', that is written in the Bible?39 — [The woman] for whom the Rabbis will in future institute [the kethubah of] a maneh. But does the Bible speak of a thing which will be in the future?40 — Yes, for it is written: And the name of the third river is Hiddekel, that is it which goeth towards the east of Ashur,41 and R. Joseph learnt: Ashur, that is Seleucia. But was [Seleucia] already then in existence? But [it is mentioned] because it will exist in the future. Here also 'almanah' is mentioned in the Bible] because it [the kethubah of maneh] will exist in the future. R. Hana of Bagdad also said: The rain waters, saturates and manures [the earth] and refreshes42 and enlarges43 [the fruits]. Raba the son of R. Ishmael, and some say R. Yemar the son of Shelemiah, said: Which is the verse?44 [It is this:] Thou waterest the ridges abundantly, thou settlest the furrows thereof, thou makest it soft with showers, thou blessest the springing thereof.45 R. Eleazar said: The altar removes and feeds, makes beloved, atones.46 Have not 'atones' and 'removes' the same meaning?47 It removes [evil decrees]48 and atones for sins R. Hana of Bagdad also said: Dates warm, satisfy, act as a laxative,49 strengthen50 and do not make [one] delicate. |  |  |
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|  |  | Rab said: If one has eaten dates, he should not give a legal decision. An objection was raised. Dates are wholesome morning and evening, in the afternoon they are bad, at noon they are incomparable.51 and they remove three things: evil thought, stress |  |  |
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|  |  | of the bowels, and abdominal troubles! — Do we say that they are no good? They are indeed good. only for the moment [they cause] unsteadiness. It is analogous to wine, for the Master said:52 He who has drunk53 one-fourth [of a log]54 of wine shall not give a legal decision.55 And if you wish you may say: There is no difficulty: This is before a meal and that is after a meal,56 for Abaye said: Mother57 told me: Dates before a meal are as an axe to the palmtree,58 after a meal as a bar to the door.59 Dasha [door], Raba explained:60 derek sham61 ['the way there'].62 Darga [stairs, ladder]. Raba explained:63 derek gag [the way of the roof].64 Puria [bed], R. Papa explained: sheparin we-rabin 'aleha [because one is fruitful and multiplies on it]. R. Nahman b. Isaac said: - To Next Folio - Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files Babylonian. [H] is fine laundry' work. Palestinian. [H] is plain washing. In Palestine the plain washing was better than in Babylonia. because the water in Palestine was better or because they had in Palestine better ingredients (Rashi). In order to get the same results they would have to do fine laundry work in Babylonia, and that would include smoothing the cloth with a stone, according to Rashi, with a gloss-stone. Let us apply [H] to the cloth on which the bride and bridegroom slept. The blood. In the process of [H] the stone with which the cloth would be smoothed would cause the drops of blood, which would be seen after plain washing, to disappear. The test of Rabban Gamaliel could therefore not be employed in Babylonia. I.e., the smell of the wine. One could smell the wine from the mouth (Rashi). One could not smell the wine from the mouth. I.e., the smell of the wine. Rabban Gamaliel. To the husband. The test showed that the wife was a virgin. Why did he first have to experiment with the two handmaids. That this was a reliable test. Lit., 'The practice he had not seen.' Lit., 'perhaps it is not certain that the matter is good,' that is, that the test would be effective. Lit., 'The way of the land,' that is, the custom. Therefore he carried out the test first with handmaids. Heb. Dor. Katu'a. Lit., 'consoled him.' Lit., 'Be punished with thy bargain,' that is, the marriage stands, although it is not to thy advantage. From hunger. Those who carried out Rabbi's commands. The young couple. Rabbi. Lit., 'read concerning them.' Lam. IV, 8. V. Glos. One hundred zuz. A woman released from a leviratical marriage, by halizah; v. Deut. XXV, 5-10. She was only betrothed (arusah, v. Glos.) but not married, and became a widow or was divorced, or released by halizah from marrying her deceased fiance's brother. Lit., 'their kethubah'. The kethubah of either the widow', or the divorcee, or the halizah. The husband who marries one of these women has a right to complain if he does not find signs of virginity. As they were only betrothed but not married they are expected to be virgins. The value of the kethubah of a woman who married when she was a widow. This is no attempt at proper etymology. The value of the kethubah of such a widow is two hundred zuz, and still she is called 'almanah'. This is no attempt at proper etymology. Lit., 'One calls her.' The kethubah was not biblically ordained for the widow; v. supra 10a. Lit., 'And was the verse written for the future?' Gen. II, 14. Or 'softens.' Lit., 'causes to extend.' That can be referred to in support of R. Hana's saying regarding the rain. Ps. LXV, 11. A play on the word [H] (altar). 'Removes' apparently also refers to sins! The answer is that 'removes' refers to evil decrees. Lit., 'loosen', (the bowels). The body. I.e., very good. — Dates are good, or very good, after the meals in the morning, noon and evening. They are not good in the afternoon after a rest (Rashi). The reference is to Samuel, in whose name this saying is quoted in 'Er. 64a. Lit., he who drinks. Log is a liquid measure equal to the contents of six eggs. And one-fourth of a log of wine is certainly wholesome. But for the moment it may make one unsteady, and therefore unfit to give legal decisions. Lit., 'bread'. If one eats dates before a meal, the effect is bad and one must not give legal decisions. The passage which declares them bad speaks of a case where one eats dates after a meal. The statement itself bears this out; v. supra p. 53, n. 6. V. Kid. (Sonc. ed.) p. 153. That is, injurious. This apparently means good. It is difficult to see the meaning of the comparison. Rashi explains: They sustain the body as the bar supports a door. Lit., 'said'. A play on the word. Or, the way is there; or, through there. Lit., 'said.' Or, the way to the roof; or, the way through the roof. Tractate List / Glossary / / Bible Reference |  |  |