|  |  | Previous Folio / Kethuboth Directory / Tractate List / Navigate Site # Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Kethuboth ### Folio 14a 'Yes. [it is] from me.' R. Joseph said: Why should we be afraid? First,1 he admits, and moreover, Rab Judah said [that] Samuel said: The halachah is according to Rabban Gamaliel.2 Abaye said to him: And in this [case]. if he did not admit, would Rabban Gamaliel declare her as fit? Did not Samuel say to Rab Judah: 'Sharp-witted one! The halachah is according to Rabban Gamaliel, but you should not act upon it,3 unless most men are fit for her,' whereas here most men are unfit for her!4 — And according to your reasoning is not this [statement] in itself difficult? [First he says] 'The halachah [is. etc.'] [and then] 'do not act in practice [on it]'!5 Hence you must say: The one ruling applies before6 the other after it was done,7 and in this case also it is like 'after it was done.'8 Abaye asked9 Raba: Did R. Joshua Say: She is not believed? This would be in contradiction with the following: R. Joshua and R. Judah b. Bathyra testified concerning the widow10 [of one who was] of a mixed family11 that she is fit to marry a priest!12 — He said to him: Now is this so?13 There14 the woman marries, and [in that case] she examines15 and [then] marries; but here16 the woman misconducts herself; does she first examine and then misconduct herself?17 Raba said: Is the contradiction [only] between [one statement of] R. Joshua and [the other Statement of] R. Joshua. [but] not18 between [one Statement of] Rabban Gamaliel and [another Statement of] Rabban Gamaliel?19 Surely the concluding clause20 teaches: Rabban Gamaliel said to them: We accept your testimony,21 but what can we do, since Rabban Johanan b. Zakkai decreed that no court be set up for this purpose.22 because the priests will obey you to remove23 but not to bring near?24 — But, said Raba; there is no contradiction between [the statement of] Rabban Gamaliel and [the other statement of] Rabban Gamaliel, [because] there25 it is sure'26 [and] here27 it is 'perhaps.'28 Neither is there a contradiction between [the one statement of] R. Joshua and [the other statement of] R. Joshua, [because] there29 there is one doubt30 [and] here31 there is a double doubt.32 Therefore, according to Rabban Gamaliel the 'sure' is [so] strong33 [a plea] that even where [there is only] one doubt34 he declares [her] fit,35 and the 'perhaps' is [so] weak [a plea]36 that even where there is a double doubt37 he declares [her] unfit.38 [And] according to R. Joshua one doubt39 is [so] strong that even in the case where [she pleads] 'sure' he declares [her] unfit,40 and a double doubt41 is [so] light42 that even in the case where [she pleads] 'perhaps' he declares [her] fit.43 Our Rabbis taught: Which is the widow44 [of one] of a mixed family? When there is with regard to it45 [no doubt] on account of mamzeruth,46 nathinuth47 and on account of slaves of the kings.48 R. Meir said: To Part b Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files Lit., 'one'. That she is believed, v. supra 12b. Lit., 'thou shalt not do a deed'. As she is betrothed, the only man fit for her is her fiance. To all other men she is prohibited. This seems self-contradictory! [lf a priest comes to seek guidance in regard to such a marriage we declare it not permissible unless he was held fit for the woman.] [If he did marry her without consulting the authorities he may retain her.] [Since she is already betrothed we do not force the bridegroom to put her aside.] Lit., 'raised (a contradiction) to'. V. p. 78, n. 9. [H] means 'dough' and is also a designation for a mixed community or a mixed family, that is a community or a family with an admixture of illegitimate persons or persons of doubtful legitimacy, v. Kid. 69b. [This shews that we place her on her erstwhile presumption of fitness and refuse to disqualify her for the sake of a doubt.] I.e., what a comparison! In the case of 'Ed. The purity of the family. In the case of our Mishnah. Therefore she is not believed. Lit., 'is there no contradiction'. And one must endeavour to explain R. Gamaliel also. Of the Mishnah in 'Ed. I.e., we approve of what you say. [Of declaring the legitimacy of such a doubtful case.] I.e., not to allow persons of doubtful legitimacy to join their families. They will not obey the court if permission is given for persons of doubtful legitimacy to enter their families. V. 'Ed. (Sonc. ed.) p. 48, nn. 2-7. In the case of our Mishnah. She says that she is sure that she had intercourse with a legitimate person. In the Mishnah in 'Ed. As it is a case of [H] the woman herself cannot say that she is sure that the family is free from illegitimate admixtures. In the case of our Mishnah. Whether the man with whom she had intercourse was fit or unfit (regarding the priesthood). In the Mishnah in 'Ed. Indeed, in the case of a widow of a member of a mixed family there are many doubts of illegitimacy. I.e., important. Against her. For the priesthood. Unimportant. V. p. 77, n. 20. For the priesthood. In the case of our Mishnah For the priesthood. In the Mishnah in 'Ed. Unimportant. For the priesthood. In short, with Rabban Gamaliel the 'sure' outweighs one doubt, and with R. Joshua one douht outweighs the 'sure'. Who has been held to be fit for marrying a priest: Tosaf. omits 'widow'. And indeed in Tosef., kid. V the word is left out. The reference will be to a girl of a mixed family and not to a widow of a member of a mixed family. v. Tosaf. [On the whole subject of [H] v., Rosenthal F. MGWJ 1881, also pp. 38ff and Freund L. Schwartz-Festschrift p. 163ff and Graetz op. cit. 1879, pp. 99ff]. The family. Mamzer-ship. Nathin-ship. For nathin and mamzer v. Glos. Cf. Neh. VII, 57, and Yeb. 17b. [According to Rashi the reference is to the Herodian dynasty.] When there is no suspicion, with regard to that family, of intermarriage with mamzerim, nathinim and royal slaves. Tractate List / Glossary / / Bible Reference ### Kethuboth 14b I have heard that when there is none of these [defects] in the family one permits [its members] to marry into the priesthood. R. Simeon b. Eleazar said in the name of R. Meir. and R. Simeon the son of Menasia also said it:1 Which is the widow [of one] of a mixed family? When a doubtful halal2 was mixed up3 in it, [for] the Israelites know the mamzerim who are among them, but they do not know the halalim who are among them.4 The Master said: 'Which is the widow [of one] of a mixed family? When there is with regard to it [no doubt] on account of mamzeruth, nathinuth and on account of slaves of the kings'. [This would show that if there is a doubt on account of] a halal [in the family] it is fit.5 Why should these6 be different? [Because] these are Biblical? A halal is also Biblical!7 And further:8 'R. Meir said: I have heard that when there is none of these [defects] in the family one permits [its members] to marry into the priesthood'. This is the same [as that which] the first Tanna9 [taught]! And further:10 'R. Simeon b. Eleazar said in the name of R. Meir, and R. Simeon b. Menasia also said it: Which is the widow [of one] of a mixed family? When a halal was mixed up in it, [for] the Israelites know the mamzerim who are among them, but they do not know the halalim who are among them.' Surely it says in the first clause [that if there is a doubt regarding] a halal [in the family, the family is] fit [to marry into the priesthood]! R. Johanan said: There is a difference between them [concerning a person who when he is called] mamzer protests and [when he is called] halal is silent. The first Tanna holds [that] every person who when called 'unfit' is silent is [considered] unfit, and thus the first Tanna said: Which is the widow [of one] of a mixed family? When there is in it no one who is silent if he is called mamzer or nathin, or slave of the king, or halal. Whereupon R. Meir said to him: This applies only to [each of] these cases11 since [he who calls him thus is liable to] render him unfit [to enter] into [the congregation,] but he who is called a halal and is silent,12 is fit, and the reason he is silent is that it does not trouble him.13 Whereupon R. Simeon b. Eleazar said to the first Tanna14 of R. Meir: If you have heard that R. Meir declares the person fit in the case of silence, this is not when he is called halal and is silent, but when he is called mamzer and is silent, for the reason he is silent is because he says to himself; 'a mamzer is well-known'.15 But [if he is called] mamzer and he protests. or [he is called] halal and is silent he is unfit,16 for the reason he is silent is because he thinks, 'it is enough if he is not excluded from the congregation'.17 One Baraitha taught: R. Jose says: [if he is called] mamzer and is silent, he is fit, and if he is called halal and is silent, he is unfit. And another Baraitha taught: [if he is called] halal and is silent he is fit, [but if he is called] mamzer and is silent, he is unfit. There is no difficulty;18 the one19 is according to the first Tanna in the sense of R. Meir, and the other one is according to R. Simeon b. Eleazar in the sense of R. Meir. MISHNAH. R. JOSE SAID: IT HAPPENED THAT A GIRL. WENT DOWN TO DRAW20 WATER FROM A SPRING AND SHE WAS RAVISHED. R. JOHANAN B. NURI SAID: IF MOST OF THE INHABITANTS21 OF THE TOWN MARRY [THEIR DAUGHTERS] INTO THE PRIESTHOOD,22 THIS [GIRL] MAY [ALSO] MARRY INTO THE PRIESTHOOD.23 GEMARA. Raba said to R. Nahman: According to whom did R. Johanan b. Nuri say [this n the Mishnah?]. If according to Rabban Gamaliel, [surely] he declares as fit even when there is a majority of unfit!24 [And] if it is according to R. Joshua, [surely] he declares as unfit even when there is a majority of fit!25 — He said to him: Rah Judah said [that] Rab said: - To Next Folio - Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files Lit., 'according to his words'. Halal is one who is profaned, unfit for priesthood on account of his father's illegitimate connection. Cf. Lev. XXI, 15 and v. Kid. 77a and 77b. A doubtful halal is a person about whom there is a doubt whether he is a halal or not. [H] means 'to he mixed up beyond recognition'. V. Jast. Therefore one has to he careful with regard to doubtful halalim. [The widow would not be disqualified where there was a doubtful admixture of a halal in her dead husband's family.] [The marriage to any one of those enumerated in the Baraitha is Biblically forbidden and consequently renders the woman who marries the offspring of such an union unfit for a subsequent marriage to a priest, v. Yeb. 68a.] Cf. Lev. XXI, 15, and Yeb. 68a. Another difficulty. The first statement of the Baraitha and R. Meir's are practically identical. Another difficulty. Mamzer, nathin and royal slave. [And does not protest against the stigma attached to his descent.] Since he is not excluded from the congregation. That is, the teacher who transmitted the words of R. Meir and said in his name 'l have heard, etc.' and not the first Tanna of the cited Baraitha. Lit., a mamzer has a voice — And since he is not regarded generally as a mamzer he does not think it worth while to protest against the assertion of one man. For the priesthood. As he is not excluded from the congregation, he does not desire any investigations into his origin (Rashi). There is no contradiction between these two Baraithas. The second Baraitha. Lit., 'to fill'. Lit., 'men', Are entitled to marry their daughters to priests. This shows that they are 'fit'. Because the man with whom she had intercourse is taken to be one of the majority, and the majority consists of 'fit' men, Because he places the woman on the presumption of fitness, v. supra 13b. V. supra 13b. Tractate List / Glossary / / Bible Reference |  |  |